It has been brought to my attention recently and on a number of occasions actually (and other mods/admins too) that a certain ISGA approved Sugar Glider breeder is being very ahem ... how can I say it? Nasty about our online community and other breeders in general!
For any nooobs out there reading this, we are a very knowledgable community on here, we have YOUR animals interest at heart, we're not here to make money, in fact we'd rather NOT sell you suggies than risk them going to a 'bad' or misinformed home.
We have been accused of being 12 year old kids. This person has actually told someone on here that I am a 17 year old kid that know's nothing about Sugar Gliders, read my posts then decide for yourself!
This person is giving out bad information, the animals are kept in a shop not at home so therefore get NO interaction.
I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO POST THESE EMAILS BETWEEN SAID PERSON AND A FRIEND OF MINE, SHE IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE FORUM, THE NAME HAS BEEN REMOVED FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. I'M POSTING THIS BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE
BOTH POINTS OF VIEW, NOT JUST ONE, SO BOTH SIDES ARE CLEARLY DISPLAYED. THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO SULLY ANYONE'S REPUTATION, BUT TRACEY FEELS YOU SHOULD SEE THE TRUTH!!
Sugar Gliders
From: Tracey Bolan (
tracey_bolan@hotmail.com)
Sent: 17 March 2008 14:09:15
To: *********
Dear Mr ****
I am very angry to hear of MORE slanderous comments from you regarding Sugar glider breeders in the UK. Apparently you have ran checks which have found that most breeders are 12 year old kids, this is not true which I'm sure you know very well! I know of a number of breeders myself and none of them are below 25, but all of them are also very angry. I suggest you run better checks next time!!
I also hear you have been telling people that we also know nothing about Sugar Gliders, well Mr ****, the majority of us know that YOU did not come up with the Taronga Zoo diet, a lie that you are telling possible new owners. We know there is no such thing as a license for breeding Sugar Gliders, another lie! We also know that the ISGA is now defunct, the site hasn't been updated since 2005!! They also recommend the tying off method of neutering, personally I would not wish to be associated with an organisation that recommends such a barbaric procedure, especially when there are other options which are widely used throughout the US and the UK.
Here are a few quotes from
YOUR website
"Private owners must be willing to become educated on the highly specialized care required and the knowledge of the animals habits. They need nutrition, exercise, socialization, training and a proper enclosure" Tell me ****, you list the Taronga Zoo diet on your website, but do you know why most people in the UK won't use a Leadbeater diet?
Exercise - in a wire wheel?
How often do you socialize your joey's? Bearing in mind Gliders are nocturnal and they're in your shop, how often do you even see your gliders?
Training? Bra training? That would be more bonding more than training.
Proper enclosure, I have been told by a recent visitor to your shop how small your cages are ****, did you know in Australia the recommended cage/aviary size for a PAIR of Sugar Gliders in 9'x9'x9'? This makes our 4-5' cages seem very small, but I know your cages are even smaller! At least the majority of breeders allow their Gliders out of cage time. But yours are stuck at the shop!!
Another quote:
"******* respects all wildlife, and other exotics. In accordance with animal rights and business standards we will only sell our products as well as our livestock to customers that meet company and organizational standards" And another quote:
"
Baby gliders are always preferable to adult, but sometimes availability (and your wallet) can make them difficult to obtain. Babies are preferable because they will be more willing to bond with you. Plus, the bond with a baby glider you have raised will always be stronger than a bond developed with an adult. Adults can come around, but if they haven't been handled much, it can be an uphill battle. The best of all are hand reared and the only supplier in Europe is *******, they will bond with you in a matter of days"
Why are you the only supplier in Europe I wonder? Maybe because it's totally unethical to remove a healthy joey from healthy parents to hand rear it for someone's pleasure. Tell me ****, do you sell your hand reared joeys as singles or in pairs? It seems to me you have very LITTLE respect for your Sugar Gliders, and absolutely NO regard for animal rights!!! All joeys can make superb pets IF they are handled. I know of people with extremely bonded sugar gliders which were parent reared.
I also know of dangerous information you have given out regarding wheels. You recommended to a friend of mine to use a wire wheel! These are extremely dangerous with countless injuries caused by getting feet trapped between the wires to having tails ripped off by the exposed moving parts!
You also recommend the use of nutrobal - this is extremely high in calcium and vitamin D, too much of these and indeed too much or little phosphorus is just as bad as not enough! A very potent food balancer is NOT preferable to a healthy balanced diet!
I know of people that have bought completely 'wild' gliders off you, people who have had gliders with dodgy back legs off you, and I know those people do NOT recommend you at all! BUT the difference is there is truth in what they are saying, you however are telling flat out lies about people that you don't even know! Who the hell do you think you are? Someone that has to tell lies about others to make themselves look good are pathetic, and that's YOU ****. Thank God that people are sensible enough to see through you!
I would be very interested to hear your comments.
Tracey
Next - the reply, his comments are in capital letters, I'll make the bold though so they stick out a bit!
18 March 2008 14:49:37
To:
tracey_bolan@hotmail.com In a message dated 17/03/2008 14:09:33 GMT Standard Time,
tracey_bolan@hotmail.com writes:
Dear Mr ****
I am very angry to hear of MORE slanderous comments from you regarding Sugar glider breeders in the UK. Apparently you have ran checks which have found that most breeders are 12 year old kids,
NO MOST OF THE ADVICE COMES FROM INEXPERIENCED OR UNQUALIFIED INDIVIDUALS this is not true which I'm sure you know very well! I know of a number of breeders myself and none of them are below 25, but all of them are also very angry. I suggest you run better checks next time!
I also hear you have been telling people that we also know nothing about Sugar Gliders, well Mr ****, the majority of us know that YOU did not come up with the Taronga Zoo diet,
(A MIXTURE DEVELOPED WHILE RESEARCHING AS A PART OF MY ZOOLOGICAL DEGREE IN 1983) a lie that you are telling possible new owners. We know there is no such thing as a license for breeding Sugar Gliders, another lie!
ALL ANIMALS SOLD COMMERCIALLY MUST BE IN POSSESSION OF A PET SHOP LICENCE THAT'S A COUNCIL REQUIREMENT We also know that the ISGA is now defunct, the site hasn't been updated since 2005! They also recommend the tying off method of neutering, personally I would not wish to be associated with an organisation that recommends such a barbaric procedure,
THIS WAS A TRIED AND TESTED METHOD OF ITS TIME, I WOULD WELCOME A CONTACT BT A VETERINARIAN OF ANY IMPROVED METHODS SO THAT THE ROYAL VETERINARY COLLEGE AND LONDON ZOO MAY BE MADE AWARE, I AM IN REGULAR COMMUNICATION WITH THEM ON COLD BLOODED MATTERS. especially when there are other options which are widely used throughout the US and the UK.
Here are a few quotes from YOUR website
"Private owners must be willing to become educated on the highly specialized care required and the knowledge of the animals habits. They need nutrition, exercise, socialization, training and a proper enclosure" Tell me ****, you list the Taronga Zoo diet on your website, but do you know why most people in the UK won't use a Leadbeater diet?
PROBIBLY ITS OUT DATED WHAT ARE YOUR FINDINGS? Exercise - in a wire wheel?
How often do you socialize your joey's? Bearing in mind Gliders are nocturnal and they're in your shop, how often do you even see your gliders?
ALL OUR ANIMALS ARE CHECKED EVERY DAY AND A DUE DILIGENCE DOCUMENT IN PLACE Training? Bra training? That would be more bonding more than training.
Proper enclosure, I have been told by a recent visitor to your shop how small your cages are ****, did you know in Australia the recommended cage/aviary size for a PAIR of Sugar Gliders in 9'x9'x9'? This makes our 4-5' cages seem very small, but I know your cages are even smaller! At least the majority of breeders allow their Gliders out of cage time. But yours are stuck at the shop!!
WE ARE A COMMERCIAL BREEDER, WE LOOK AFTER THEM BETTER THAN THE LEGAL REQUIREMENT BUT NOT AS WE WOULD LIKE WE DO NOT HAVE ZOO TYPE ENCLOSURES, WE ARE HOWEVER REDUCING OUR GLIDER POPULATIONS AND FURTHER BREEDING, AS LIKE YOU I FEEL THEY DON'T MAKE SUITABLE PETS TO MOST Another quote:
"******* respects all wildlife, and other exotics. In accordance with animal rights and business standards we will only sell our products as well as our livestock to customers that meet company and organizational standards" And another quote:
"Baby gliders are always preferable to adult, but sometimes availability (and your wallet) can make them difficult to obtain. Babies are preferable because they will be more willing to bond with you. Plus, the bond with a baby glider you have raised will always be stronger than a bond developed with an adult. Adults can come around, but if they haven't been handled much, it can be an uphill battle. The best of all are hand reared and the only supplier in Europe is *******, they will bond with you in a matter of days" Why are you the only supplier in Europe I wonder? Maybe because it's totally unethical to remove a healthy joey from healthy parents to hand rear it for someone's pleasure. Tell me ****, do you sell your hand reared joeys as singles or in pairs? I
F WE HAVE TO DO IT AND TO BE FAIR WE ALWAYS TRY TO PUT PEOPLE OFF PREFER AS A PAIR SO TWO SO THEY HAVE AN IDENTITY I HAVE ONLY DONE THIS FOR DISABLED PEOPLE OR ZOO'S It seems to me you have very LITTLE respect for your Sugar Gliders, and absolutely NO regard for animal rights!!! All joeys can make superb pets IF they are handled. I know of people with extremely bonded sugar gliders which were parent reared.
AS DO WE. I also know of dangerous information you have given out regarding wheels. You recommended to a friend of mine to use a wire wheel!
WE HAVE USED A WIRE WHEEL WITH WEBBING FOR YEARS WITH NO ILL EFFECTS These are extremely dangerous with countless injuries caused by getting feet trapped between the wires to having tails ripped off by the exposed moving parts!
LEFT AS IS WE AGREE
You also recommend the use of nutrobal - this is extremely high in calcium and vitamin D, too much of these and indeed too much or little phosphorus is just as bad as not enough! A very potent food balancer is NOT preferable to a healthy balanced diet!
I AM NOT AWARE NOR IS VETARK THE PRODUCERS AND CURRENTLY NOW ASKING ROYAL VETERINARY COLLEGE RECORDS DEPT FOR ANY NEWS, AGREED IN PRINCIPLE BUT NOW YOU ARE RELYING ON SOMEONE FOLLOWING A DIETARY REGIME ITS BETTER TO RECOMMEND SOMETHING TO THE MAJORITY THAN HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE 17 GLIDERS HANDED TO ME BY RSPCA AND COUNCILS AND VETS WITH MBD WHERE NO THOUGHT WAS GIVEN TO THIER DIET OR EVEN THIER WELFARE, WE HAVE YET TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL PROSECUTION, EVEN WITH THE NEW WELFARE ACT, IF YOU WERE TO SEE SOME OF THEM YOU MAY BE BLUNT AND CRANKY LIKE ME TO EVERY PHONE CALL AND E-MAIL WE GET, I AM GLAD OF PEOPLE LIKE WHO HAVE MORE TIME THAN MYSELF TO HELP, MAYBE YOUR THE NEW GENERATION TO TAKE OVER WHAT WE STARTED 18 YEARS AGO, BUT AS A PET KEEPING ZOOLOGIST I FEEL I STIL HAVE A KEY ROLE TO PLAY BEFORE I RETIRE COMPLEATLY HOPE YOU AGREE I know of people that have bought completely 'wild' gliders off you, people who have had gliders with dodgy back legs off you,
THIS I WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO KNOW MORE OF, WE ARE UNAWARE OF ANY CASES SUCH AS THIS AND WOULD GENUINELY LIKE TO KNOW THE PERSON AS WE HAVE MOST ON RECORD.AND WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT AND ESTABLISH CAUSE and I know those people do NOT recommend you at all! BUT the difference is there is truth in what they are saying, you however are telling flat out lies about people that you don't even know! Who the hell do you think you are?
AS YOU ARE DOING NOW ..ITS TOO EASY TO GET ANGRY AND FRUSTRATED AS YOU HAVE PROVED TO ME. Someone that has to tell lies about others to make themselves look good are pathetic,
I NEVER TELL LIES BUT I DO UPSET POOR OR IGNORANT ANIMAL KEEPER WHO MAKE THIER STORY SOUND BETTER BY STRETCHING THE TRUTH and that's YOU ****. Thank God that people are sensible enough to see through you!
I would be very interested to hear your comments.
Tracey
And finally, Tracey's reply which incidentally hasn't been answered. Tracey's replies are between the lines of **** and in
italicsFrom: *****
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:49:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Sugar Gliders
To:
tracey_bolan@hotmail.comIn a message dated 17/03/2008 14:09:33 GMT Standard Time,
tracey_bolan@hotmail.com writes:
Dear Mr ****
I am very angry to hear of MORE slanderous comments from you regarding Sugar glider breeders in the UK. Apparently you have ran checks which have found that most breeders are 12 year old kids,
NO MOST OF THE ADVICE COMES FROM INEXPERIENCED OR UNQUALIFIED INDIVIDUALS this is not true which I'm sure you know very well! I know of a number of breeders myself and none of them are below 25, but all of them are also very angry. I suggest you run better checks next time!
***********************************************************************
Again - simply NOT true, I know of numerous glider keepers/breeders across the Uk and none of them are teenagers! You obviously don't keep in touch with current events in the Glider world. I know for a FACT you have personally insulted a very good friend of mine to a customer who DID buy gliders off you, that person contacted both myself (because I'm a friend) and the person you insulted immediately! This person is an extremely knowledgable keeper and is held in very high regard!**********************************************************************
I also hear you have been telling people that we also know nothing about Sugar Gliders, well Mr ****, the majority of us know that YOU did not come up with the Taronga Zoo diet,
(A MIXTURE DEVELOPED WHILE RESEARCHING AS A PART OF MY ZOOLOGICAL DEGREE IN 1983) a lie that you are telling possible new owners.
************************************************************************
I will check those claims with my friends in Australia (they work for the zoo!), I'm sure you're aware this diet wasn't designed for Sugar Gliders, in fact, I can find a link to an almost identicle wording including the introduction, I say almost because you have replaced various ingredients, which also makes YOUR diet a modification of the Taronga Zoo diet.*************************************************************************
We know there is no such thing as a license for breeding Sugar Gliders, another lie!
ALL ANIMALS SOLD COMMERCIALLY MUST BE IN POSSESSION OF A PET SHOP LICENCE THAT'S A COUNCIL REQUIREMENT ************************************************************************
The way in which you phrased your sentence infers that people in general need a license to breed, there are many private owners out there with no license and do NOT need a license, they are not regulated (yet) by DEFRA. There are also other shops that breed Gliders - they have a license too, you are NOT the only Glider Breeder with a pet shop license!! But nost wouldn't use that to make others look bad!*************************************************************************
We also know that the ISGA is now defunct, the site hasn't been updated since 2005! They also recommend the tying off method of neutering, personally I would not wish to be associated with an organisation that recommends such a barbaric procedure,
THIS WAS A TRIED AND TESTED METHOD OF ITS TIME, I WOULD WELCOME A CONTACT BT A VETERINARIAN OF ANY IMPROVED METHODS SO THAT THE ROYAL VETERINARY COLLEGE AND LONDON ZOO MAY BE MADE AWARE, I AM IN REGULAR COMMUNICATION WITH THEM ON COLD BLOODED MATTERS. especially when there are other options which are widely used throughout the US and the UK.
*************************************************************************
The RCVS and London Zoo have no idea the testicles can be removed completely?? Sheesh!! Sorry, but I don't believe that for a second!! My vet has been neutering gliders using a humane method for a couple of years now, I'll have a word with him and ask him to contact the RCVS with the presentation I was sent by a friend of mine! Maybe I should contact them myself. IF they're THAT far out of date then the UK has a serious problem!!***********************************************************************
Here are a few quotes from YOUR website
"Private owners must be willing to become educated on the highly specialized care required and the knowledge of the animals habits. They need nutrition, exercise, socialization, training and a proper enclosure" Tell me ****, you list the Taronga Zoo diet on your website, but do you know why most people in the UK won't use a Leadbeater diet?
PROBIBLY ITS OUT DATED WHAT ARE YOUR FINDINGS?*************************************************************************
The leadbeater diet is still a very popular diet in one modification or another, I'm not going to discuss my findings with you as I don't think it's relevant here.
The Taronga Zoo diet isn't used by any private owner that I have come across either in the UK or the US, so you are telling them they must research yet you list a diet that no one uses! It's a zoo diet designed not even for Sugar Gliders! ************************************************************************
Exercise - in a wire wheel?
How often do you socialize your joey's? Bearing in mind Gliders are nocturnal and they're in your shop, how often do you even see your gliders?
ALL OUR ANIMALS ARE CHECKED EVERY DAY AND A DUE DILIGENCE DOCUMENT IN PLACE************************************************************************
Right - they're checked, what about socialisation? Peering into a nestbox or pouch isn't socialisation.************************************************************************
Training? Bra training? That would be more bonding more than training.
Proper enclosure, I have been told by a recent visitor to your shop how small your cages are ****, did you know in Australia the recommended cage/aviary size for a PAIR of Sugar Gliders in 9'x9'x9'? This makes our 4-5' cages seem very small, but I know your cages are even smaller! At least the majority of breeders allow their Gliders out of cage time. But yours are stuck at the shop!!
WE ARE A COMMERCIAL BREEDER, WE LOOK AFTER THEM BETTER THAN THE LEGAL REQUIREMENT BUT NOT AS WE WOULD LIKE WE DO NOT HAVE ZOO TYPE ENCLOSURES, WE ARE HOWEVER REDUCING OUR GLIDER POPULATIONS AND FURTHER BREEDING, AS LIKE YOU I FEEL THEY DON'T MAKE SUITABLE PETS TO MOST ************************************************************************
Most homes don't have zoo like enclosures either, but most homes allow their gliders out to play in a room that is made safe for them. *************************************************************************
Another quote:
"******* respects all wildlife, and other exotics. In accordance with animal rights and business standards we will only sell our products as well as our livestock to customers that meet company and organizational standards" And another quote:
"Baby gliders are always preferable to adult, but sometimes availability (and your wallet) can make them difficult to obtain. Babies are preferable because they will be more willing to bond with you. Plus, the bond with a baby glider you have raised will always be stronger than a bond developed with an adult. Adults can come around, but if they haven't been handled much, it can be an uphill battle. The best of all are hand reared and the only supplier in Europe is *******, they will bond with you in a matter of days"
Why are you the only supplier in Europe I wonder? Maybe because it's totally unethical to remove a healthy joey from healthy parents to hand rear it for someone's pleasure. Tell me Mark, do you sell your hand reared joeys as singles or in pairs?
IF WE HAVE TO DO IT AND TO BE FAIR WE ALWAYS TRY TO PUT PEOPLE OFF PREFER AS A PAIR SO TWO SO THEY HAVE AN IDENTITY I HAVE ONLY DONE THIS FOR DISABLED PEOPLE OR ZOO'S It seems to me you have very LITTLE respect for your Sugar Gliders, and absolutely NO regard for animal rights!!! All joeys can make superb pets IF they are handled. I know of people with extremely bonded sugar gliders which were parent reared. AS DO WE.
************************************************************************
I know for a fact you *used* to take healthy joeys away from the parents, in fact I have spoken with you a few years back and you offered me hand reared saying they make the best pets. It is no more ethical to take a healthy joey away from willing parents for a disabled person than it is for an able bodied person, the animal 's welfare MUST come first!!*************************************************************************
I also know of dangerous information you have given out regarding wheels. You recommended to a friend of mine to use a wire wheel!
WE HAVE USED A WIRE WHEEL WITH WEBBING FOR YEARS WITH NO ILL EFFECTS These are extremely dangerous with countless injuries caused by getting feet trapped between the wires to having tails ripped off by the exposed moving parts!
LEFT AS IS WE AGREE *************************************************************************
Webbing - what about the bits at the sides (where the wheel joins to the stand?) - shame you never mentioned this webbing to a customer of yours! *************************************************************************
You also recommend the use of nutrobal - this is extremely high in calcium and vitamin D, too much of these and indeed too much or little phosphorus is just as bad as not enough! A very potent food balancer is NOT preferable to a healthy balanced diet!
I AM NOT AWARE NOR IS VETARK THE PRODUCERS AND CURRENTLY NOW ASKING ROYAL VETERINARY COLLEGE RECORDS DEPT FOR ANY NEWS, AGREED IN PRINCIPLE BUT NOW YOU ARE RELYING ON SOMEONE FOLLOWING A DIETARY REGIME ITS BETTER TO RECOMMEND SOMETHING TO THE MAJORITY THAN HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE 17 GLIDERS HANDED TO ME BY RSPCA AND COUNCILS AND VETS WITH MBD WHERE NO THOUGHT WAS GIVEN TO THIER DIET OR EVEN THIER WELFARE, WE HAVE YET TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL PROSECUTION, EVEN WITH THE NEW WELFARE ACT, IF YOU WERE TO SEE SOME OF THEM YOU MAY BE BLUNT AND CRANKY LIKE ME TO EVERY PHONE CALL AND E-MAIL WE GET, I AM GLAD OF PEOPLE LIKE WHO HAVE MORE TIME THAN MYSELF TO HELP, MAYBE YOUR THE NEW GENERATION TO TAKE OVER WHAT WE STARTED 18 YEARS AGO, BUT AS A PET KEEPING ZOOLOGIST I FEEL I STIL HAVE A KEY ROLE TO PLAY BEFORE I RETIRE COMPLEATLY HOPE YOU AGREE ************************************************************************
Vetark have bloody nutritional values on the side of their pots FFS!!! Maybe you should forward them a few of the following links so they know what's in their own products!!! http://www.petsparade.co.uk/reptiles/supplements-cricket-foods/?p=1790 http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/testudo/v5n3barrows.htm - 5th paragraph down
http://www.petzoo.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=97 I would be very concerned about a product recommended by vets when VETARK themselves don't know the nutritional data!!
I myself take in rescues, I'm no stranger to the problems a lack of nutritional information cause, I have rescues from pet shops mainly! The type that recommend parrot food.
The way we combat that is by giving the best possible advice, making ourselves available to answer any questions we can fully, and by stressing the importance of a good diet, this is our top priority.************************************************************************
I know of people that have bought completely 'wild' gliders off you, people who have had gliders with dodgy back legs off you,
THIS I WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO KNOW MORE OF, WE ARE UNAWARE OF ANY CASES SUCH AS THIS AND WOULD GENUINELY LIKE TO KNOW THE PERSON AS WE HAVE MOST ON RECORD.AND WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT AND ESTABLISH CAUSE *************************************************************************
These people won't contact you **** as you are very unapproachable and it has also been said rude! *************************************************************************
and I know those people do NOT recommend you at all! BUT the difference is there is truth in what they are saying, you however are telling flat out lies about people that you don't even know! Who the hell do you think you are?
AS YOU ARE DOING NOW ..ITS TOO EASY TO GET ANGRY AND FRUSTRATED AS YOU HAVE PROVED TO ME.
*************************************************************************
We (i say we because I'm including a number of breeders) are angry, and rightly so, you are making claims to people saying that we lack knowledge, that we're 12 and in the case of my friend 'she's a 17 year old kid, what does she know?' When in fact she's in her 30's and is probably the most knowledgable person I've come across!!! You tell people that they shouldn't buy from 'us' as it will all end in tears! These are slanderous remarks, especially as your information isn't exactly up to date or top notch anyway!! *************************************************************************
Someone that has to tell lies about others to make themselves look good are pathetic,
I NEVER TELL LIES BUT I DO UPSET POOR OR IGNORANT ANIMAL KEEPER WHO MAKE THIER STORY SOUND BETTER BY STRETCHING THE TRUTH and that's YOU ****. Thank God that people are sensible enough to see through you!
*************************************************************************
I've mentioned the lies above so I'm not going to repeat them, but these are different people who have never met and never spoken to one another, telling me (us) exactly the same things!! IF these people are ignorant animal owners, then you've sold gliders to them, so you're in the wrong! *************************************************************************
Tracey
