Hand Rearing - what's your opinion?

[Marie]

I know of a breeder that often takes healthy joeys away from their mum and handrears them because 'they make better pets'.  I have hand reared three little monsters, 1 that came in with a rescue female, both were suffering ill effects from poor diet, and 2 that I thought had been rejected, but now the same thing has happened with the mum's new joeys and she has continued to rear them without problems (she left them alone and crying but not in the nest).

I have found that suggies aren't overly bothered when the young is taken, they have a quick look around and then hop on to the food bowl and start eating - is this the actions of a stressed, desperate mother?

People often say that a joey dying or being taken stresses the mum and she suffers grief, I've never witnessed a glider grieving for the loss of a baby, heck some will cannibalise them - that's not the actions of a 'loving' mother.

Suggies breed purely to procreate, the babies aren't born out of love, it's just what happens when females come into heat, an instinct to secure the future of the species. 

Are people being 'over sensitive'?  Are they trying to humanise animals?  Afterall - why do you think they can breed so often and why do you think they can have an unweaned joey at foot, a joey in pouch and a joey in the womb?  In the wild it's because of the losses they suffer at the hands of predators.  As the saying goes you can take an animal out of the wild but you can't take the wild out of an animal.

My hand reared sweeties are wonderful, they're big and healthy and totally bonded.  It is hard work to hand rear and it can be very stressful, but it is also one of the most rewarding things I've ever done, to see them blossom and become big, healthy animals is amazing.

(** I'm not saying I agree with hand rearing I just want your opinions **)

[yemen101]

Another good post Marie

I personaly wouldn't want to take joey's from the perant's, I can see the pro's of it from making a "better pet" idea but so far all the joey's I have sold to people and raised have been hand tame and ready to bond. Surely it takes away from some of the experince of keeping gliders? The gliders I have sold are semi bonded and hand tame - I only do enough so the gliders can be handled and aren't scared of interaction from a new owner. The bonding and taming process is all part of the experince?

Would it not make for lazy glider owners if they don't have to put the time and effort into knowing a glider?

I know that all the resources are avalable to raise a fit and healthy glider, But surely a mother's milk is better than formular/Supplement? A similar arguement to raiseing childern - Breast or bottle?

What about the things joey's learn from the perants, I like the fact that Honey & Monster still have some of the "killer Instinct" in them - You can see it when they take hoppers and crix - I can hand feed them but it took some time and a few near misses!! Although none of the joeys (that I know of) have the "killer instinct" 

I have noticed when I have sold joey's that Honey & Monster do sulk and seem to miss the joey's, This does'nt always happen but more oftern than not they have a little sulk - lasting for no more than a night.

Lee 

[jungleflockmom]

I think that gliders raised by their mothers is superior to hand-raising if at all possible. The superior nutrition and socializing that gliders can do w/the babies is much better than the socializing to humans we are limited to.

Gliders need to learn how to get along as gliders. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be handled by humans while still being cared for by their mums. But taking them to hand-raise should only happen because the mother cannot raise the joey.

I also think that joeys often go to their new homes when they are too young. By about 10 weeks oop, they are getting to a less fearful time that makes adjusting to a new home much easier. For me, I think a 12 weeks oop joey that has been handled by humans since a few days oop is perfectly prepared to join a new family. Although I know most breeders don't like to keep the joeys this long. . . . . lol

[Marie]

Yay at last, someones responded.  Plenty of people have looked but I think too scared to post!

Personally I think handrearing joey's to make good pets is unethical, I have 3 hand reared's, the first one Dinx because her mum was a rescue and poorly and so was Dinx, and the other 2 ruffians (Lily and Molly) because I THOUGHT they had been thrown out of the nest! 

Dinx is stupid tame, anyone that's met her will know that, she's just adorable and I'm glad I've had the experience of hand rearing.  And I have to say my H/R's behave just like Suggies, the ONLY thing I've not heard them do as often as the rest is the clicking sound (greeting), I'm not sure about the parents having to teach them everything because as I said mine do everything a parent reared joey does, eat, jump, glide, play and groom.

I'm also not sure on the grieving parent bit that I read so much about, when I took Lily and Molly I felt insanely guilty, but the parents weren't at all bothered!  They had a look where the joey's had been left but that was it!  They never went off their food, or jumped about frantically trying to find them or anything you would associate with a mother split from her babies.

I think we have a bad habit of putting our human emotions and feelings on to the gliders (Anthromorphism), they are after all animals and don't have the ability to think like we do.  I love my Suggies, but do they love me? 

[jungleflockmom]

Your dog probably "loves" you.
Your gliders find you an interesting diversion, part of their colony that shows up at intervals so not a full colony member or pouch sharing family member. They thoroughly enjoy the treats you offer, but that's not love and they aren't all that hungry anyway.

We keep gliders for us, for our fun, interest, and enjoyment. They need other gliders, not humans.

Now this is a generalization about born in captivity exotic/wild animals. There are a few gliders that have an extraordinary connection to their humans. I think that breeders and posters do their gliders a disservice by telling buyers that they are so loving and wonderful. [especially if the breeder doesn't well socialize their joeys] They are wonderful, but not usually devoted to us as domesticated dogs are.

I guess it goes back to "Know your breeder and only buy from experienced, reputable ones".

[yemen101]

I wouldn't say a doy realy "loves" their owner, They vary breed to breed to how loyal they are. But how long would they hang around if it didn't have the boundery's of your house or garden to keep the secure, They'd probley come and go knowing its a source of food,water and some where dry to stay. Would they stay for your company and the affection that we show our animals?

I agree that we are seen by our gliders as an interesting diverson to everyday "Glider life" some where intresting to perch and can be used to jump between the cage and my head lol.

I think I'm guilty of doing my gliders a disservice with they discription of how honey and monster react and interact with myself and dan, Honey will look if I say her name - I'm not sure if she's looking because of the noise I've made or that she knows her name - Something I've only just thought about. But the joey's are never sold as being like this and I have made it clear that you only get from a glider what you put in by bonding and playing with them as you do with any animal.

I think like a marie said we try and place human emotions on animals that they can't understand or have anyway of understanding not even your dog or cat truely loves you, To any animal i believe that we are only really a source of food, water, safety and entertainment at the end of the day.

[jungleflockmom]

There have been some interesting studies done w/dogs and their brains that indicate an emotional response to their human family analagous to the response humans have to their own families and their dogs. [mice and rats, too, not just dogs]

I believe that your gliders do know their names. They commuicate w/each other in a language very much like humans' first and most primitive language that was similar to that used today by some indigenous tribes - clicks, psst, chirps, etc. If parrots can learn language and use it to truly communicate as Irene Pepperberg's parrots have demonstrated in the lab, I think that other animals can learn the meaning of words.

Language and emotions may not be what separates humans from the other animals. The more we learn, the more science shows us just how much we have in common w/other mammals.

[Marie]

There have been some interesting studies done w/dogs and their brains that indicate an emotional response to their human family analagous to the response humans have to their own families and their dogs. [mice and rats, too, not just dogs]

But human family members are a part of the pack, there will be a chemical response when a pack member appears, there's bound to be especially if the human pack members are dominant over the dog.  It will feel safe, and protected again and those feelings will trigger a response of dopameine (sp?) which is the brains happy chemical.

[Amalthea]

One of my first gliders, Candy (my avvie pic), did prefer the company of me to her cagemates, though.  Whereas, Cotton and Flower (her cagemates) were content to stay together, Candy would come out and follow me like a puppy.  She was very easy going and enjoyed the company of humans.  Just the way she was... But I would say that all gliders are like her.  She was an exception to the rule.  Any babies that I breed and sell on leave here used to people, but not cuddly.  Even though they have been handled since they came oop.  I do believe it's up to their new owner to bond with them.  I don't believe it would be fair to let them bond with me and my husband and then take them somewhere else and leave them.  If they bond with us, they stay with us.

[jungleflockmom]

Gotta love that dopamine!
I'd like to have gliders bred from the ones that prefer human company. Not that all of their babies will, but at some point this characteristic may be heritable.

[Amalthea]

*lol*

Unfortunately, Candy couldn't be bred from.  She had epilepsy (the reason she only had a short life).

Before we knew she had this problem, she was with an entire male and she had twins in her pouch.  During a fit, she killed one and threw the other.  We managed to save the one, but her life was so short and she always had problems.  She wasn't complete, mentally, and she never grew...  She lived to be about a year old, but was never more than about 2 1/2 inches (not counting her tail).  But her and her mom lived together happily. 

We tried to get Candy treated, but none of the vets would try ANYTHING with her.  Every one we went to would weigh her and tell us to watch her weight.  That was it. 

[jungleflockmom]

There was a glider like this in the US. AmyMichelle's Sophie. She was very cute, but very very tiny and very sweet. I don't think she had seizures throughout her life, but she was the sweetest of gliders. She spent a lot of time in her pouch but loved it when Amy took her out.

[Amalthea]

Candy was normal sized, quite robust looking, actually... Just Belle, the baby she threw during a fit, was teeny.  I know there are a few "breeders" in the US who are breeding for these teeny gliders.  Then turning around and selling these teeny gliders for a bigger sum of money when they have obvious health issues.

[jungleflockmom]

I haven't seen anyone breeding for tiny gliders but I'm sure you are right. If there is an anomaly, you can be pretty sure that someone will decide it's worth pursuing in further generations.

[Amalthea]

It may have slowed down now, but I remember seeing teeny gliders advertised on the tinterweb ages ago.  Back when I still lived over there.  I couldn't imagine putting Belle through all that...  She just wasn't strong enough.  Don't know why anybody would think such a tiny animal (that's not meant to be that size) should be able to rear young...  Such a shame.