Choosing a diet

[tillie]

Hi...diets make me want to go arrggggg!!  Right now I have that out of my system I shall start at the beginning. 

When I 1st got Pacha and Miah they were being fed various friut, cheerios and bread with honey.  After a lot of debating I decided to go with the skinhorse modified leadbeaters diet.  Ive had no probs with it really, they usually eat it but dont devour it if you know what I mean.  They have been on it for a year and they seem healthy and are not overweight.  (Miah only weighs 72 grams bless).   They have that along with fresh fruit or homemade smoothies or the Bio Pot summer fruit yog.  They also have veg but wont eat it unless I make up the veggie relish.  They have 10 mealies each at lunch time).  (At the mo Miah has chicken and boiled egg blended every night as well as she is nursing joeys). Now and then they have a babyfood fruit dessert. My concern with this diet is the amount of honey in the BML and the veggie relish.  Im umming and aring (dont know if thats spelt right!) whether to change and try another diet.  They dont come out at all during the day so leaving food in the cage is pointless (Im thinking of Maries diet here where you leave the  INSECTIVORE-FARE in the cage during the day).  Last night I was on the net for 5 hours looking at different diets and am getting so confused!.  I did pick up some cat food the other day thinking it was Iams but when I got home I realised it was pets at homes own make..the analysis is this:

moisture 8%, protein 32%, oils and fats 20%, fibre 2.1%, ash 6.6%, calcium 1.2% phosphorus 0.85%, vit A 15,000u/kg, vit D3 1.750lu/kg, vit E 575lu/kg, copper 12mg/kg.

Ingredients:
fresh chicken (min 25%), poultry meat meal, rice, maize, animalfat, maize gluton meal, egg powder, fish meal,, brewers yeast, barley, sugarbeet pulp, poultry digest, sodium chloride, potassium chloride, methionine, citrus extract, yucca extract, rosemary extract.

I dont know how this compares to Iams?  I cant find the Iams analysis on the Iams site. I am happy to go and get some Iams if need be.

Whats your views on diets?

This is what I fed them last night rather than the BML.

10 pieces of cat food between the 2 and they ate it (the joeys did Tuesday night but not last night).  They also had 2 table spoons of various fresh fruit and their veggie relish.  M & P also had chicken in their cage cause of the joeys still nursing.  I gave a pinch of repcal and herptivite on their food.  They had their mealies at lunch time.  Tonight they are having chicken with boiled egg, various fruits, veggi relish, vits and calcium.  Then tomorrow back to the cat food. Is this ok?

On exotic nutrion site they have the Glider complete food...any views on that.  I feel they need a bit of variety so not sure.    Should I feed gliderade?  as that contains nectar and bee pollen I take it there is no need to get the bee pollen as well?  How about acacia gum?  What about nutraglider?..should they have this as they do get their vitamins?  Is it ok they dont have the INSECTIVORE-FARE as like I said they dont get up during the day.

What exactly do you feed?

When my joeys start eating on their own they usually have the BML, if I dont have that will they be ok with the above?

Sorry its so long...I hope I havent confused anyone on how Ive written this!!

[jungleflockmom]

I'm not a big fan of the sugar based diets. The honey based diet did not fare very well in the GC study. The manna and saps they eat are more complex polysacchrides and complex carbs.

I can't comment on a "pinch" of vitamins and calcium as I don't know how much calcium is in that pinch. Mealies, chicken and egg are very high in phosphorus and the veggies could also have an inverse Ca:p ratio especially if you are feeding corn - not much nutrition for the inverse ratio; so you should calculate how much phos they are getting and balance the Ca:p ratios.

If that is more work than you want to do, feed the diet Marie feeds. It has been producing large, healthy joeys for 15 years.

I am not a fan of most of the exotic nutrition products. The pellets and meals don't have very digestible ingredients and my gliders hated them. When I got gliders, I ordered the various pellets from them. Threw them in the trash. Wasted the money. I feed acacia gum and bee pollen. I really like these additions to their diet as the nutrients are more complex. I think that the acacia gum is good for their digestive tract.

[Marie]

Jeees Tillie - that's a complicated diet!!! 

I agree with JFM on the honey diets (as you know), The cat food ingredients isn't too far off the Iams, I'll find the analysis later (I'm at work but distracted by forums ... you know how it is!).  And the one you're using also contains Yucca Extract which I know Dee thinks very highly of.  The ca:p ratio isn't bad either , protein is (if I remember correctly) the same as Iams.  If your suggies don't come out during the day then don't bother with the IF, i don't use it anymore.

What I do is blend my fruit and veg (if you wish) making sure the ratio of the mix is between the ratio's 1:1 and 2:1 which isn't as hard as it sounds.  I add vitamins to the mixture and blend them too to make sure they're distributed throughout the entire mix if you sprinkle on top the first suggie to the bowl gets them.  The other reason I blend my food is so that they cannot pick out just what they like, I often put things in that they won't eat if I just chop them up, but they will eat a mix containing the item.  For vitamins I use Wombaroo High Protein Supplement, or Glider Booster and Glider Cal.  I like to get the diet as close to the 2:1 ratio so that I don't have to add extra calcium I'd much rather they get calcium through the diet rather than added.  I like the Cal and Booster as you can choose whether you give them vits and calcium or just one or the other.

The Gliderade contains cracked bee pollen but not acacia gum, the nutra glider contains acacia gum (I'll check on the bee pollen!).  I give mine Gliderade a couple or three times a week because they just love it!  Bee pollen is great as it contains essential amino acids (the building blocks of protein) and calcium, they really enjoy it too.  The Acacia gum is contains complex carbohydrates which are the type they would get in the wild as opposed to honey in the US Leadbeater mods that contain simple sugars.

Mostly as a protein source they get the Iams, 10 biccies for 2 gliders is about right, I'll give them egg occasionally instead of the biscuits, but the problem with protein sources is the inverted ca:p ratio's, so I'll sprinkle a bit extra calcium in the mix when they get egg (which is why I don't use it that often!).  Mine don't seem overly keen on chicken for some reason, they get it occasionally but again the ca:p ratio is terrible.

The Exotic Nutrition Glider Complete I've tried and like Dee I wasn't impressed, I tried leaving it in the cage as a staple, but they never touched it!!  Oh, except for the dried fruit, they picked that out bless them

The important thing is keep it simple, with the diet I use it can be varied, you don't have to stick to the same fruit or veg, you can change the flavour of the cat biscuits, you can use either Nutraglider (which you mix with fruit juice by the way) or gliderade - or both and alternate them if you wish! 

I have done a sticky with ca:p ratio's of different protein sources so hopefully that will make any diet decisions you make a little easier

Much, much later ... here's a link to the analysis of Iams 1+ chicken http://www.iams.co.uk/en_BI/jhtmls/product/sw_ProductDetail_Page.jhtml?pdi=2066&li=en_BI&bc=I&sc=C&pti=PD&tc=1&bsc=&lsc=&_DARGS=%2Fen_BI%2Fjhtmls%2Fproduct%2Fsw_ProductList_droplet.jhtml.1_A&_DAV=1

And I'm considering using this, although still looking for other possibles http://www.eukanuba.co.uk/en_BI/jhtmls/product/sw_ProductDetail_Page.jhtml?pdi=2026&li=en_BI&bc=E&sc=C&pti=PD&tc=1&bsc=&lsc=&_DARGS=%2Fen_BI%2Fjhtmls%2Fproduct%2Fsw_ProductList_droplet.jhtml.1_A&_DAV=1

[tillie]

Thanks for the replys...Which 1 is complicated Marie? the diet I was feeding or the 1 I am trying now?  I thought the 1 I was trying now was like yours but without the gliderade etc.
Ive always blended my fruit but they now have decided they dont like it much that way!  I will try them on blended again tomorrow.  I understand what you are saying about the vitimins being blended in, do you know how much repcal and herptivite to put in.  It was easy with BMl as it was a teaspoon so now Im just putting in a little pinch.I dont want to change the vits and calcium at the mo as I just got a years supply shipped over so I would like to use that if I can.  If I cant then its not a prob.
Mine are funny, they dont like boiled eggs or boiled chicken but if I blend them together they love it!  They would normally only get that twice a week but whilst Miah is nursing I was told to give it every day.  They also get the yogurt 2/3 times a week.  I will take a look at  the ca:p ratio's of different protein sticky.
So would the joeys once they start feeding themselves be ok on this?  Sorry Im so used to BML!!   Also what do you suppliment feed your joeys if needed?  again Ive always supplimented with joey BML.

Thanks for the links

[Marie]

You can use the repcal and herptivite if you wish - I'd just add a sprinkle and mix it in.  With the cal/booster for me it's easy because it's half a teaspoon of each per pound of fruit, otherwise it's just a sprinkle.

I've never had to supplement feed a joey, I've had to hand rear and supplementing is like hand rearing but just giving mum a helping hand.  I use Wombaroo >0.8 possum milk replacer.

My joeys have always gone from mums milk to this diet without any problem whatsoever.  I supplement the mum's with the same Wombaroo milk replacer, and they get the high protein supplement too. 

[tillie]

Ok thanks Marie, I have the womberoo and usually suppliment if needed using 50% womberoo  50% Joey BML.  They all seem to be eating the cat biscuets now so think I will stick with that from now on.