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Author Topic: potential pregnancy how do I know and what should I do!  (Read 2486 times)
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hday
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« on: July 31, 2009, 02:05:23 pm »

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anyway!!!
I think lil may be pregnant! not certain as with underweight gliders I dont know what is isnt normal!

3 weeks ago I joked she seemed to be thicker round her middle and that was looking well
more recently I have been more seriously concerned!
as you know my intention has never been to breed from them and we all believed as they are underweight and were originally so malnoursihed it was unlikely
not to mention the fact they dont really show interest in each other!
and decided no point putting him through extra unnecessary operation after all his other anaesthetics and amputation etc.


anyway she maybe but I am not sure.... she does seem chunky around her thigh area and does seem to have a furry lump but more of sausage than peanut!... I havent felt it as know if is baby will dislodge...
firstly if is a joey, how do I know and how much growth woudl I expect over how long ie what should I be looking for in bump as seems to have one each side which is hwy I wonder if it is just fluff and fat...! but before know I have tried to convince myself of things .....

IIF she is pregnant what should and shouldnt I do... supplement - if so daily? or can that be harmful and just normal ie glider cal and glider boost
or should I do bee pollen and accaica gum and yucca more often... if so suggested frequency

protein - should i up it - by how much and for how long

food - should I introduce oatmeal breakfast again? and again how long for
anythin else should add in

and IF she ISNT pregnant what harm could the above do (and what to him as he scoffs stuff too!)

also cleaning cage - same ammount, more, less?
handling... etc

IF she is pregnant I will have to just hope it all works out, whilst I am aware of risks of rejection and my responsiblity if it occurs I know reality is I am at work during day and wokrking in hospital (which also involves hour commute and one overnight a week) know that there is high chance if joey was rejected I wouldnt be able to rescue it... also worried for lil - would I see if she struggled and with their history is there a risk to her!

on the other hand to get one healthy bonded baby out of all this would be an amazing way to round up last couple years!
       
       
any help or suggestions would be great especially as I am now taking church youth group to norwich so cant make glider meet.... plan on ordering gliderboost though down to last 1/3 packet only thing didnt restock last time! good for anything else unless there is a suppmlemtn for if when she lactates!

help! dont know what want! would love her to have healthy joey and then get him snipped... but at same point would also be good if she isnt and I am wrong and she is now just becoming chunky as she should be... as worried of risk to her and baby (and my peace mind!) if she were to be/lose baby....
and I dont knojw anything about it as havent looked into that as never thought would need to....
also as now worried does that mean should now put him throught snip just incase so dont get faced with this again....!
wont pick up replies until sunday pm (can do texts)

lol and hugs
hope you all have great day at meet and best wishes to all from me (and phil and lil!)
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EzzieM
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 04:46:39 pm »

lol before going into a bunch of pointers and stuff,

can you get a pic of her belly?

This is snicker, right before her joeys started poking random pieces out:
(she's VERY "pregnant" in the below pic) do the bumps look like this?



if she IS pregnant, the below should help.

here are some reference sites that walk you through pregnancy/breeding:
http://www.suzsugargliders.com/breedingsugargliders.htm
http://www.suzsugargliders.com/joeydevelopment.htm

relevant points:

Heat:
If she is housed with an intact male, it will become very obvious when she goes into heat because he will take a sudden interest in her that is quite noticeable. You will probably see him climbing onto her back, licking her cloaca and following her everywhere. When this behavior starts, mating will probably occur within 24 hours.

Once mating begins, your sugar gliders will not have much interest in food for about 24 hours. Some males become very aggressive while mating and may nip at the female’s back while mounting her. In retaliation, your female may crab a lot and try to walk away from him. This is normal behavior. You should not worry that the male is hurting her or raping her. Upon occasion, the male may actually wound the female during mating. If this occurs, you will see an open sore on the female’s back, usually near her shoulders. Open sores should be treated by a veterinarian to prevent infection. Also, you may need to separate the female from the male for a few weeks in order to allow full healing of the wound. If the male continues to reopen the wound, separation until the fur begins to grow back in will be necessary, which may take up to three months.



babies!:

After mating, if the female is impregnated, gestation in the uterus lasts for approximately 16 days. At the end of the gestation period, one to four immature joeys will be born and make their way into the mother’s pouch. Most sugar gliders only have one or two joeys at a time, but three or four joeys can be born upon rare occasion.

During birth, the mother will lick a trail from her cloaca to her pouch. The underdeveloped joey, that is only about one centimeter long, will crawl up the trail, then drop into the mother’s pouch where it will find a nipple. Once the joey finds a nipple, it will place its undeveloped mouth around the nipple and the nipple will swell inside its mouth so that the mouth becomes attached to the nipple. The joey will remain in-pouch, attached to its mother’s nipple for approximately nine weeks.

It is very rare to actually witness the birth of a joey. It is more likely that you would notice the mother cleaning herself after a birth has occurred.

Once your sugar glider has given birth and has one or more joeys in-pouch, you may notice a slight swelling in the lower abdomen of your female sugar glider that will appear as one or two small lumps. You can gently feel your sugar glider’s belly to find out whether or not there are joeys inside the pouch. This must be done very gently or you may accidentally dislodge the joey from the mother’s nipple. If your female sugar glider is comfortable with you, hold her on your chest, then using one hand, slip your thumb under her arms and gently lift her chest away from yours, exposing her belly. Using the other hand, gently rub your thumb over her lower abdomen, below her pouch slit and above her cloaca. If she has joeys in-pouch, you will feel small solid bumps (one or more) to either side of her abdomen. Depending on how far along she is, they may feel like small, hard peas or larger. If she is not yet bonded enough to allow you to do this, you can check her with another person's help. Put her in a pouch, head down, then have the other person hold her. Gently fold the pouch down, exposing her lower body. Have the other person hold the part of the pouch that her head and arms are in, then you can gently pull her tail and legs out of the way so you can check her belly.

As the joey develops inside the pouch, it will become more noticeable. By the time the joey has been in-pouch for about four weeks, there will be a very obvious lump that is about the size of a peanut shell. When the joey is about a week or two away from coming out-of-pouch, you may start to see parts of the joey coming out of the pouch opening. It is not unusual to see an arm, leg, tail or ear poking out. You may also hear your female sugar glider start to sing to the joey. This is a loud chittering sound that is often accompanied by hard shaking that appears as if the mother is having a seizure. If you look inside your sugar gliders’ nest, you will probably see the mother laying on her back and her legs will be convulsing. This is normal and should not cause alarm on your part.

At about ten weeks after birth, the joey will come out-of-pouch (o.o.p.). For the first day or two, the joey will still be attached to its mother’s nipple. The joey is not officially considered out-of-pouch until it is fully detached. Once released from the nipple, the joey will still spend the majority of its time nursing. If there are multiple joeys, they may not come o.o.p. on the same day. For the first week or two, the joey will still go back into the mother’s pouch a lot of the time until it is too large to fit inside anymore. You may even notice the mother tucking the joey back inside when you approach her.



once joeys are oop:


Once out of pouch, all extra nesting areas within the cage should be removed so that there is only ONE area for the parents to sleep. This is very important as otherwise, the parents may leave the joeys in one pouch and then go to sleep in another one. Since joeys can not regulate their own body temperature, they can get hypothermia quickly if left alone for too long. In addition, some breeders like to lower the nesting pouch or box within the cage to help prevent traumatic falls. Another option is to put shelf hammocks in the cage, just outside of the nesting area, to give a soft landing spot in case the joey does fall out. Do not put a piece of fleece directly on the bottom of the cage. Joeys may up being abandoned by their parents under such pieces of fleece where they quickly become too cold and get dehydrated.

It is very important that you keep a close eye on the family to make sure the joey is not being left alone for more than a few minutes (10-15) at a time. If you ever find a young joey that is cold, outside of the nest and/or crying by itself, you should check on the joey to make sure that it is warm and has a full belly. If the joey is cold or its tummy is empty, try placing the joey on the mother IF she is in the nesting pouch. She should immediately start to clean the joey and guide it to her pouch. If she doesn’t, then it is very likely that she is rejecting the joey for some reason. Only close observation will help you to determine if this happening. Intervention may become necessary if the parents do not return to the joey to care for it. If the mother is out of the nesting pouch, then place the joey onto the father's back. He should immediately carry the joey back to the nesting pouch and start caring for it. This is very important because if the mother is out of the nesting pouch, then it is her "free time" and if you place the joey onto her, she may become very frustrated and start to nip at the joey in aggravation.

Once the joey is about 10-14 days o.o.p., it will open its eyes. At this stage, you will notice that it is starting to grow fur on its belly and the fur on the rest of its body is filling in more. By this time, the parents will be leaving the joey alone in the nest for short periods of time. As soon as the joey starts to cry, one of the parents should return to the nest to check on it.

By the time the joey is about five weeks o.o.p., it will start the weaning process.  Since the joey will be eating as well, make sure there is enough for all of them. Once the joey starts the weaning process you will begin to notice that its tail will start to get fluffier and it will look more like an adult glider in miniature.

When the joey is about eight to ten weeks o.o.p., it should be ready to be separated from its parents. Some parents seem to be relieved when the joey is separated, others will get visibly distraught with you. Either case is normal and should not cause any undue alarm on your part.

Most breeding sugar gliders will mate again within a few weeks of the time the joey comes out-of-pouch. It is not unusual for a nursing mother to have one or more joeys in-pouch along with the joey(s) that is out-of-pouch. My sugar gliders tend to produce one or two joeys every three months or so. The mother will produce different types of milk for the different-aged joeys. Make sure that she is being provided with extra portions of her entire diet to ensure that she be able to continue to supply enough milk for the multiple joeys. Feeding your gliders a proper, nutritionally complete and balanced diet is crucial to the well-being of lactating females. If the female is not getting a nutritionally complete and balanced diet, the risk of rejection and/or cannibalization is highly increased.  There are many good diets available now. You can research them further by going to Feeding Your Joeys & Adult Gliders. There are also two milk supplements available that some people recommend giving to a lactating mother. They are Wombaroo Milk Replacer and Brisky's Booster Milk. If you are already feeding your glider a nutritionally complete and balanced diet, these are not needed to help with your glider's milk production. However, it is a good idea to have one of them on hand in case of joey rejection. (More can be read about that by going to the article about Hand Raising A Joey.)

Some breeders give their female sugar gliders a hiatus once a year from breeding so that she does not get overly fatigued from the stress of constant breeding. Separating her from her mate during the 2-3 days of her heat cycle over the course of 1-2 months is one way of providing this hiatus; however, careful observation of your gliders will be necessary so that you know exactly when the female's heat cycle begins so that you will know the proper time to separate them. Also, keep in mind that this may be difficult to do if she has newly o.o.p. joeys since the father is needed to help care for them. Some females will instinctively give themselves a hiatus by avoiding the male while in heat. It is important to provide multiple nesting areas in the cage (if there are not newly o.o.p. joeys) so that she can easily do this, if she wants to. One of my females used to make a nest inside her exercise wheel for two nights while in heat. Any time the male approached her, she would literally kick him out of the wheel-nest. However, not all females will take this proactive approach, so physical separation may be necessary IF the female seems to be getting fatigued by multiple breedings. If the fatigue seems to be ongoing, then consideration of having the male neutered to permanently "retire" the couple from breeding should be made. This is, in fact, what I will be doing with my Pepe & Bittah in 2008. Pepe is twice Bittah's size and the constant demand of supplying milk for his large joeys is taking a toll on her, in spite of her self-imposed hiatuses (she is the one cited above). Her overall health is much more important to me than her continued breeding, so he  will be neutered. It is interesting to note that Bittah has refused his advances entirely since July, 2007. Each month while in heat, she moves to another pouch and refuses him admittance until her estrous cycle is over. 
















extra vitamins etc:

Basically, mom's need more protein,

θ Mixing Glider-Cal with Glider Booster vitamin supplement will bring optimum results. Mix ½ teaspoon Glider-Cal with ½ teaspoon of Glider Booster per pound of food. Can also be sprinkled on live insects as a coating before feeding and add some extra bugs or whatever you choose for your protein source.





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Amalthea
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 11:55:02 pm »

Karma for that reply! :shock:
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Marie
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2009, 02:53:06 pm »

ARGH!!!  Sorry Helen!  I completely forgot to reply to your text!!!  Sorry  Sad, but I think Ezzie has covered it all in great detail .... 
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2009, 02:54:42 pm »

In fact, I think this is worth stickying.  Smiley  Welcome to stickydom Ezzie  Smiley
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roxyandboys
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 05:15:29 am »

hey hun, as i said in my text i can come over and have a looksie if you'd like one eve, although i do have a dog now so he would be with me. let me know. x
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EzzieM
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 06:22:07 am »

aww squishy! tanks!
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kent
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 12:04:33 pm »

Hi - just joined here today after reading this thread,

I was wondering if someone here would mind taking a look at my darling girl, Jane.  Her mate (Tarzan) has been through the wars lately, (one eye removed due to infection, then massive secondary infection such that half his head was increasing in size by 50% with puss that I needed to drain 2x daily).  Fortunately, he's fully mended now - has been for the last month or so, and seems to have gotten straight onto the business at hand (or managed to do so just before he got sick).

I'm pretty sure she's in the family way - she's gone from 90g to 125g recently (and he's been normal apart from his illness so, I don't think there's anything wrong). There's always excess food in the morning, so it isn't like she's had access to more food while he's been sick.  She looks quite 'hippy'.

I put fresh branches (I can't remember what they are but I know the branches are safe from when I researched it a while back - they look a bit like maple leaves) in there yesterday, and he's already managed to clear off most of the leaves (300+ I'd guess).  Normally he does this, but not at such a frantic rate.  I'm wondering if this is behaviorally significant.

I've just tried to take some photos with a view to posting them here, unfortunately, she didn't want to cooperate too well.. and, they're not great... but i someone could take a look, it'd be great.

Thanks,

Kent.

Note: I was going to attach them here, but the size limit on pics limits me a bit, so, I've put them here:
http://gallery.me.com/kentmartin#100057


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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 01:49:40 pm »

Wow, poor Tarzan!  It does look to me like Jane does have joeys in pouch!   Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2009, 01:56:10 pm »

yeah i was going to reply sooner but stupid lappy crashed.

I would say she is in the "family way". you can just see faint bump on each side, so may even be twinnies.

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kent
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2009, 03:28:48 pm »

Thanks very much... am very excited.  The kids next door, even more so  Wink

I'm trying to work out how long before they are likely to depouch... I gather it is 2-3 months post birth, so I've been doing some numbers to try and work it out.

I first noticed Tarzan was sick on the 17th of June (and he went under the knife on the 18th), and, he was really ill (still surprised he survived) so it is pretty unlikely he was feeling amorous between then and say, the 17th of July.

That'd mean, in order for her to be showing, she couldn't have concieved since he got well (2 weeks ago) because the babies would only just have been born, and I'd still not be suspecting a thing.

Therefore, I am thinking she had to give birth at latest, 2 weeks after he got ill - which'd be the end of June.  (I should keep a rutting diary, I tried once in an unrelated area and... well.. it didn't go down well   Roll Eyes).  Anyway, the upshot of all this is that they must have been pouchbound for a month now, which'd mean I have at max 1-1.5 months to wait to meet my new friends.  Does that sound right?

Thanks again Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 04:27:23 am »

Sounds about right.  Smiley

Unless your adults are bonded to the kids next door, I'd keep them away from the joeys though.  Suggies are well known for killing their joeys, they don't need an excuse, but the more you can minimise the risk the better.
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kent
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 09:28:23 am »

Yeah - sounds like a good idea.  I'll keep em away until I've been handling the joeys a bit... they get very limited access in any event, the older one is great with them and very patient and quiet, but the younger one (6) tries to be quiet and not make sudden movements, but just can't control himself Smiley

Tarzan has now manage to clear just about every leaf off the trees I put in there a couple of days ago - by my estimate that'd be 500ish stems he's chewed through.  Normally he does this, but not at nearly such a frantic pace.... is this further evidence that he's expecting little bundles of joy, or, just random behaviour?

Cheers!

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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2009, 04:04:16 am »

Aww, are you finding the leaves stuffed in to the sleeping area?  I find that my males nest more than my females!  Which reminds me, I must put some more shredded paper in!
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kent
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2009, 04:13:01 am »

Yeah.. buckets of them.  He's always been more of the nester than her.  He's funny though, he's bitten off literally hundreds of leaves... he's made a little pile in a corner as well as heaps just dropped to the bottom of the cage... my point is, he carries these leaves around a fair bit, then seems to forget what he was up to and drop them.

I tried handing him one from the base cage when he was at the entrance to his house and he gave me, an, oh, thanks, can't stop to chat type look, and snatched it straight in.

...

On an unrelated note, when the new bubbas start to depouch, should I lower their sleeping area (house)?  Currently it is about 1.5m from the ground and I've never tried to get them to sleep in anything less than 1m from the ground...

(As a side note, and I am sure you all know this, but someone'll come along who doesn't.  I find that when I want them to move house, I just put the old house about 20cm lower than the new one and they've usually moved within 30 mins.  If they display extreme reluctance (> 2 hours) then I just lower the old one another 40cm or so - works every time).
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