potential pregnancy how do I know and what should I do!

[kent]

Ezzie,

That link you posted above with the pictures of various stages of 'pregnancy' is most instructive.. thank you.

[EzzieM]

aww you're welcome

[kent]

I just saw a new behaviour exhibited then... Tarzan jumped out of bed for a (long!) afternoon drink leaving Jane in the pouch.  Whilst he was gone the pouch was shaking like Jane was violently shivering.  She shouldn't be cold, while there are a couple of holes down the seams of her (new) pouch, it is double layered, has lots of blankies inside and feels warm when you put your hand in for 30 secs or so.

I read somewhere that they can be observed having what looks like an epileptic fit which is some sort of 'rocking the baby' type thing... I'm wondering if that is what it was.  I couldn't look in the pouch without untying it, and I suspect she would have stopped if I had moved her.  Any thoughts?

[kent]

I was just reading the 'thinking of breeding thread' and all the talk there has me in terror - you guys make it sound like the odds of this sort of thing happening are very high. Are they? 50/50? Lower?

I've been doing a lot of reading since I've worked out that Jane is expecting, and, as far as I can see the basic rules are as follows:

1) Minimise stress (avoid visitors)
2) Stick to the usual routine
3) Ensure there is only 1 sleeping place in the cage
4) Ensure mum and dad don't abandon them for more than 20 mins at a time
5) Avoid constantly peeking into the pouch (although, this conflicts with 2 )
6) Stick to the usual diet
7) Ensure there is excess protein available (I've suspended fruit only day and worms only day for the duration)
Don't actually pick the babies up until their eyes are open (but a little touchy stroking is OK as long as mum and dad don't mind)


Optional:

Move pouch closer to ground (I'm not going to, based on advice here)
Remove wheel (ditto, & ditto, and wasn't sure of the logic behind that anyway)

My questions are:

What are the odds of cannibalisation/abandonment/other nasty?
Apart from the list above, is there anything else I should be doing?
At what age are these little ones out of danger?
Once they are OOP, is there some sort of schedule I should have for checking on them?
We're having a party here on Sat night with a friend who is a DJ setting up in the lounge. Was already planning to move their cage into my room and leave the door shut, which will have them separated from the music by a long hall and a door.  Should that be enough?  I could stash them in the ensuite toilet (which puts another 2 doors in the way), but they can't run loose in there and the cage won't fit, so they'd be stuck in their pouch without water for a few hours which strikes me as a v bad idea.

[Rhianna]

What are the odds of cannibalisation/abandonment/other nasty?

[/b]

there is no general statistic for cannibalisation, it all depends on your gliders, but if your glider is underweight, not completly tame, in rooms with strange animals, had a bad diet, had a previously bad diet, has been ill, has been previously moved, is surrounded by loud noise etc etc etc could all have a effect on the chances on the youngs survival.

Apart from the list above, is there anything else I should be doing?

i wouldnt be touching the little ones at all, even if mum trusts me. Mother animals can be your best friend, but when little ones are around, their intincts will kick in, and they could either attack you, or attack their own young. I would leave it until they are OOP and eyes are open.

At what age are these little ones out of danger?

i would say about 6weeks OOP, but cannot be too sure.

Once they are OOP, is there some sort of schedule I should have for checking on them?
We're having a party here on Sat night with a friend who is a DJ setting up in the lounge. Was already planning to move their cage into my room and leave the door shut, which will have them separated from the music by a long hall and a door.  Should that be enough?  I could stash them in the ensuite toilet (which puts another 2 doors in the way), but they can't run loose in there and the cage won't fit, so they'd be stuck in their pouch without water for a few hours which strikes me as a v bad idea.

[/b]

definetly dont put them in a small room with a toliet without their cage without water. that is a terrible idea. anyhting could happen, and if there is a mother and young there, they will need all the drinking they can get. water should be available at all times anyway.

to be honest, it depends on how loud the music is going to be. maybe if they were upstairs they would be better protected?

[kent]

They've been with me for about a year and are relatively tame.  Both happily hand feed (in fact they prefer it) and both come and bounce around my hands excitedly at feeding time.  He'll happily stay on me for quite a while, she gets off after a few minutes (he's definitely tamer).

As for illness.  He had a nasty head infection and an eye removed, but he's been back at full strength for at least a month now.  She's been completely healthy since I had her.

No touching at all until eyes are open - will do that then.

I've misled you with respect to the party... the youngsters are still in pouch (I estimate 5-6 weeks based on the guide Ezzie posted earlier.  I agree though, leaving them in the pouch for a few hours strikes me as a bad idea - but I figured it didn't hurt to get advice, picking the lesser of 2 evils

If you knew the guy who lived upstairs you wouldn't suggest that!

I think I may be able to get the cage into my en-suite, which'd mean 2 doors between them and the music tomorrow night - I think they'll be OK then.  We only have parties about once a year, and I wouldn't have planned one had I known she was expecting, c'est la vie.

My only other question is, once they come OOP, should I be checking on them through the night? If so, on what schedule?  Or... just check at night before bed and check again in the morning?  I'm a disastrous sleeper so I'd rather not, but if it is recommended then of course I will

 

 

[Marie]

You should have more than one sleeping place even when there are joeys, as I said earlier, it is natural for the parents to put the joeys in to a nest that is currently out of use (usually with a guardian), it's predator evasion!

That thread is an eye opener, it's there because we were getting lots of newbies that had gliders for less than a month and were breeding, ones that can't even give out basic advice!  That thread is there for them to see it's not as simple as stuffing them in the same cage!

Don't overdo the paranoia, don't keep checking the joeys are still there, leave mum to it unless you see any warning signs such as joeys on the outside of the sleeping area, or if there are any bite marks. 

As for the party, move them well out of the way where no one can get to them!  Move their cage with them in it (probably take them out first wrapped up in their cage, move the cage and replace pouch).  Don't be tempted to show your friends, and make sure curious friends can't get to them.

Cannibalisation, I can't put odds on it, I've bred for years without a single issue!   

When are they out of danger?  Well, usually joeys are killed and/or eaten in the first 2-3 weeks.  But as with everything suggie,, that's not written in stone.

You can handle the joeys once their eyes are open, but always do it in full view of the parents.  Don't keep him/her/them out for more than a few minutes, and when you put them back just rub them gently with the inside of the sleeping pouch or bedding just to put the colony scent back on them.

[kent]

Thanks Marie,

All helpful advice.. there's no shortness of willingness on my part, just inexperience which is why I'd like to get all the advice I can.

To take what you've said a bit at a time...

Would you still recommend adding a second sleeping place now (with them just a couple of weeks from coming OOP)?  I've had them about a year and in all that time they've never had a second sleeping place (apart from on moving days )  Changing any sort of routine was something I thought it was best to avoid just now..?

Fortunately, I'm not in the 'just had them a month category', but to be frank, the whole just stick them in the cage, don't bother them and let them do their thing seems to be the thrust of the advice I've gotten thus far.

With respect to moving them, I've been moving them quite a bit over the last couple of weeks and I do it as you mention (I had a leak into the flat downstairs and have had plumbers in hammerdrilling and whatnot during the day - not fun!).

Good to hear some +tive news on the cannibalisation stats!

Yes.. the link Ezzie posted has advice that concurs with yours re: handling (http://www.petsugargliders.com/sggrowth.php)

up to 2 weeks out of pouch
Holding the joey about 10-15 minutes at a time is recommended at this stage. The baby will most likely cry for mom while holding it. You can calm the baby by keeping it warm, as it still doesn't have much fur. Try placing the joey in your bra or cupping in your hands. The mother glider may be nervous about you holding the joey the first few times out of her site, especially if she is a first time mother. Do not stress the mother out. If she is very concerned with you holding her joey, start by walking away only for a minute, and put the joey back. Slowly work up her trust. Speak softly to the baby so that it becomes accustom to your voice.

... easing up to half hour plays by about 4 weeks... unless there's advice contrary to that, I'll pretty much follow that routine.  They'll be gradually and gently introduced to the people they're going to come into contact with regularly at around 3-4 weeks OOP.  The tip bout rubbing on the sleeping pouch isn't one I've read before, but sounds good.

Unfortunately for every question answered, I come up with more.

I've no idea how often people wash their pouches... I tend to do mine whenever I start to notice the smell. Jane and Tarzan get upset whenever this happens (and I've learnt to never make pouch cleaning day cage cleaning day).  Given the whole smell sensitivity thing with the joeys, should I skip pouch changing for a while, or just change them over, and not clean the blankies?

Thanks ever so much for all the advice incidentally - to all of you... a lovely supportive little community this is

[EzzieM]

Here's what *I* do with pouches ALL the time, (haha I kind of have an unlimited supply.)

1. Place pouch one in the cage for 1 week.
2. 2 days before the end of the week, add small squares of fleece to the bottom of pouch 1 to get colony scent on them.
3. 8th day I add pouch 2 but I transfer the fleece pieces from pouch 1 to pouch 2.
4. leave the cage for 1 day with two pouches
5.  remove pouch 1 and wash it, placing pouch 2 in the spot that pouch 1 was in. You can leave the fleece pieces in for a day or so, but eventually you'll need to wash those too.

at this point, you can wash pouch 1 and prepare repeat the process.


rinse
repeat.


(... joking about the rinse part.)

hope that helps!

[Marie]

At about ten weeks after birth, the joey will come out-of-pouch (o.o.p.). For the first day or two, the joey will still be attached to its mother’s nipple. The joey is not officially considered out-of-pouch until it is fully detached.

Just so that you know Ezzie - this isn't correct, it is another US myth!  The joey first releases the nipple while it is STILL in pouch, at around 40 days, it's in various reference books including Monographs on Marsupial Biology, Reproductive physiology of marsupials  Author - Hugh Tyndale-Biscoe and Marilyn Renfree. 

Sorry - for some reason it suddenly dawned on me this morning that you might have included the above in your text!!!  Have have weird brainwaves like that for some reason!  Either that or I'm just slow!! 

[EzzieM]

Lol no worries. Good to know  for future reference. I always assumed it just meant that they were still nursing.

[hday]

starting to believe they may make it!!!
phil is still grumpy as and occasionally lunges at lil but all seem to be ok
she is huge!!!
and for first time last night got glimpse of baby!
night before had seen them moving in pouch and whilst eating she let me very gently stroke
tonight she came to get biscuit from bar and I saw a leg I think and then long curly tail - so strange they are black and furless weird
and as I hadnt realised the pouches open toward the centre
ie looks like she splits down her center seam, looked very freaky!!!

sooon I may meet them... really hope so....hadnt dared to believe there might be a good result after all their problems!

sorry neurotic maybe first time mum!

re fit thing - can hear lil do it for a bit each night - kind of like a muted crabbing but nicer, a sort of chunter and then you can hear the nest box kind of knock and move, presume that is the same kind of thing as the rocking the baby!

just really hope dont miss lots as liil is keeping herself to nest box much more unfortunatelly and kind of worried to let her have lots out cage time for fear that there would be a problem
as she is much heavier and less agile than normal!
something to do with 2 wacking great cushions on her tummy!

soo anything else I should be doing at mo other than lots more food, protein and supplement!
I know I watch and dont touch babies til after eyes open
although lots talking is good!

[EzzieM]

lol I LOVE the pregger waddle.. it's so funny!  I just got a glimpse of Snicker's twins the other day hehehe they're so cute!

the hardest part of new mommyhood is the WAITING. LOL this will be the longest stretch of the whole thing! It feels like they're NEVER gonna come out! lol

[hday]

it is just amazing - daily getting a show now of the twins and lil is very chilled lets me stroke her and gently nudge them to get them to move tail etc! it is amazing how the still get stuffed in!

it is even more incredible though as when I got my pair they were half body weight and so malnourished and skitty, both had hypos several times, he broke leg, tail and had amputation
so it was impossible (so we thought) for them to get pregnant - for them to now have managed it and her to get to term and it seems still be ok with healthy young....!
heres hoping - keep on taking bad pictures on my phone - dont know how to upload them but hey!

[hday]

slightly neurotic novice mum! advice me!

didnt want to panic and start new topic but would be nice to hear on this one!

ok so babies were out of pouch this morning - I had heart failure as a slim lil greeted me at cage door very lively and obviously relieved to be able to move, he was also up so I freaked wondering where they were, saw 2 little bundles in  pouch at bottom of nest  box - bit cold but still alive, so initially left them, after 15 min and no noise and no sign either parent returning I paniced and picked them up and put them one each on parent - he disaapeared into box with one crabbing and she immedeatly nuzzled hers... all good!

tonight again they seemed to leave them a long time although went back in as I ended up puttiing food in with them to keep them together!


so how long is too long for joeys to be left alone
is it normal for both parents to be out at the same time
and if no how do I try and stop that
(seems to be food related - they both love food and I wonder if they forget all else at that time!)

also should I be worried as the joeys ears havent popped ie are they premature
and havent heard a single noise out of them yet!
what noise do they make

and (hopefully not) if a joey were to get too cold, would it call out or would it like humans just drift into sleep and pass out... this is my worry and why I waznt to know how long too long for them to be left alone is!

also shoudl I up the temperature of the room....

I thought I was doing well by not expecting too much and not building up hopes... but now they have got so far want them to make it!!!

I know it says not to have more fleece in area as parents can forget them... but as they are being left for good 15-20min is it worth putting thicker pouch in so they have more insulation...

sorry to ask questions but not been here before and all the reading on joeys doesnt help when you are sitting watching parents running round, clock ticking and then find baby feels cold!!!

lil isnt very tidy either had it all hanging out earlier (whcih I suppose is good as means they ahve been feeding!)

do they stay permently out of pouch now? I thought they were supposed to pop in and out not just stay out?

thanks