Introducing Female with Joey in Pouch to new male

[roxyandboys]

Hi

I am wanting to introduce a female to some new cage mates, two brothers.  At the moment she has a joey in her pouch and i am a little worried in case once the joey comes Oop that the new males might reject it.  Although it would by that point smell like one of their gang i guess, but they would certainly know that it was not one which they fathered.

The reason i am wanting to do this is that the female is currently in her exsiting group which consists of a male (the father) and another older female, the last joey she had mysteriously disapeared and it was suspected that it had been killed by the older female (although they were not living with me at the time).  I would hate for the same fate to come to this joey.  I will be placing her with the two brothers at some stage anyway as she has become a real loner and the other two in her cgae pretty much ignore her most of the time, i think this is maybe due to her being very timid and much smaller maybe.

Can i introduce them now or should i wait?

Many Thanks for your help

Roxy

[Kuraii]

Well, I don't know much of anything, but from what I've read, if it isn't that males joey, then he'll probably kill it. I'd personally wait.... Besides, even if the male didn't kill it, new cage mates would put alot of stress of the female, and that could leave her rejecting it, even before it's out o the pouch...

I would wait until someone that knows what they're doing like Marie or Lou lou comes and says something. They're a real big help with these things XD

[roxyandboys]

Thanks

Yeah that was my biggest worry, worst case if i feel that the joey is at risk from the other female once it is Oop i can seperate them at that point and then introduce them once the little one is older

[Marie]

I shouldn't put the pregnant females in with the other males, as Kuraii has correctly pointed out, it's likely the males will kill the joey/s.  And then there's the stress.  I think I'd introduce the OTHER female to the 2 boys leaving the pregnant female and her mate in the cage. 

In the cage with 2 boys, is there a dominant one?  Tell tale signs are larger scent gland on the forehead and heavier set with more weight on him?

[roxyandboys]

The other female is also pregnant and is very "attached" to the male, which is why this female is such a loner and why i wanted to move her into the cage with the other boys as they are already "talking" to each other through the cage wires.

As for the brothers, yes, Spice is the boss out of the two of them.  Thus far they have never even had a cross word to say to each other.  D'you think this may change if bringing a girlie into the family circle?  Was another concern i had about doing this.

As for the brothers killing a joey which does not belong to them, yes, thanks, that's what i thought would probably happen, but i thought i would check.

Is there anyway i can limit the risks of the dominant female killing the timid females joey once both of their joeys are Oop.  I am guessing that she does not want another females joey taking up any of her mates time as she wants her own joey to get the best.

[Marie]

The introduction of a female MAY cause squabbles, but as Spice is obviously the boss then it will probably be just putting sugar in his place.  BUT that's NOT a guarantee, there are no guarantees as I'm sure you know, they're all individuals.  The other thing you could consider is getting the 2 brothers neutered.  There's still no guarantee they wouldn't kill the joey, but that would reduce the risk. 

Hmmm, how to reduce the risk of killing joeys.  How big is the cage, sometimes if suggies feel crowded they will cull, I'm not a big believer in the one female killing anothers joey, I had this problem a few years back, we seperated the pregant female from the other two and the babies STILL vanished!  If the cage size is adequate then consider diet or the amount of food available to them.  Bear in mind that suggies breed to coincide with an influx of protein source when the joey comes OOP.  Do you increase protein and calcium for them?

[roxyandboys]

Hi

The male + 2 female group were not with me when the incident with the missing joey occured, so i couldn't comment on the conditions they were in then but having spoken with the previous owner he seeemed very genuine in his love for them and also seemed to know what he was talking about with them so i'd be surprised if the conditions they were in were anything below acceptable.

At the moment they are in a 4 tier (with the tiers taken out) chin cage (only had them 3 days now) I am building a cage at the weekend to go into the recess under the stairs for them and was going to split the area into two with my brothers on one side and the other group on the other side, i was hoping to open the space into one if i am able to introduce the older male to the 2 younger ones successfully (although at the moment i'm not so sure that will happen!)

As for increasing protiens and calcium - this is a worry of mine now that i see that the females are with joeys already.  I have posted a questions regarding calcium supplements anyone uses, as this would also be very helpful for my chins and degus who are pregnant, protiens - thus far the new group seem to like almost everything i put down for them, i've been giving extra cat food and egg as i thought these would provide the additional protien (unless you have an alternative suggestion?)  The calcium i admit to being a little stuck on, at the moment i am giving them some milk drops (rodent safe) cat food a mix of various seeds/nuts/chin food/meal worms, pinapple and apple, leadbeaters mix, home made nector. ummmm..... thinking about it i have some questions regarding my brothers who dont like anything, i'll post on the diet board in a mo.

I admit that i'd not thought that 1 female would kill anothers joey, but this is what the previous owners thought had happened.  Is it possible that sugars are like a lot of animals in that with their first littler sometimes they will kill their own as they are too inexperianced to deal with it?  I know this is the case with many small furries (albeit rodents).  The females both had their first joeys last time, and they are currently with their second joeys.

God - i am so glad i found a UK site - i regard myself as being a responsible pet owner and try to give all of my animals everything their particular specieis needs, but it sure is nice to simply have other people to bounce my ideas and thoughts around with!  Was not keen on joining any of the american sites.

Roxy

[Marie]

What is the home made nectar mix you're using?  These worry me as I know of someone recommended the use of condensed milk and water as a nectar mix which really isn't good!  For a start, condensed milk is full fat milk and sugar, and dairy products should be given in moderation.

What Leadbeater mix are you using, bml for example is already loaded (far too much in my opinion) with vitamins and calcium, so they reallly shouldn't need extra.  I personally don't use any Leadbeater mod (or original) as I think they're just awful ... all that sugar, all those supplements ...

Anyway, back on track, personally once you have all your supplements at hand, scrap the leadbeaters, for extra protein on the diet i use you can add insects, egg, extra cat food, bee pollen or high protein wombaroo (but not with other supplements such as cal and booster).

Inexperienced mums will sometimes kill the young, I think it's happened once in my experience (she had triplets and killed one of them!).

I'll email you the booklet thing I give out to new suggie parents or prospective suggie parents.  Most of it is on my website but unfortunately my website is down at the minute. 

[roxyandboys]

Homemade Nector - well, nector is basically sugared water, so i mix fructose (fruit sugar) and brown sugar in boiling water then allow to cool.  How strange someone recommended condensed milk and water as a nector mix??  I've never heard of flowers producing milk products to attract the bees!!

Leadbeaters mix - just the normal, non modified type, is this stuff not good for them?  Would they be better off not having it?

Where d'you get your wombaroo stuff from, cannot any uk shops?  I was considering trying hedgehog food (if i can find anywhere that lists the ingrediants!) as hedgehogs are insectivores also.

I think given what you have said they are probably getting enough protien, just the calcium to takcle now as i think they probably need extra than what they get at the moment maybe.

And, where can i get bee pollen in the uk (without actually raiding a bees nest!!)

thanks for booklet - i'll have a look in a mo

[Marie]

Me, me, me, and me  .  I'm the no1 suggie goodie supplier in the UK!!

I know, the condensed milk thing is weird!! Me and this person had a big fall out about it ... lol!!  Your nectar mix doesn't sound harmful, fructose and brown sugar are fine, brown sugar is actually loads better for them as it is apparently better for blood sugar levels.

Leadbeaters is one of them sticky subjects, I personally wouldn't feed it, it's far too much honey (simple sugar) for my liking, I also don't really agree/approve of baby food and I can't say I'm overly keen on the constant supplementation either  .  I'd much rather they get their calcium from a well balanced diet.  The vitamins are necessary though.

I wouldn't bother with hedghog food either, to be honest, keep the diet basic, varied and nutritious and you shouldn't need stuff like that.  I used to use Insectivore Fare, but to be honest I'm not overly keen on the amount of crap in it!!  (not that I'm fussy or anything!!)

[roxyandboys]

Yes i learnt about the benefits of brown sugar for myself when my own blood sugar levels dropped dangerously low last year!  I had a few cups of hot nector myself then!

Leadbeaters mix - i can see the point you make about wanting to provide them with a balanced diet of fruits and vegs instead or pumping them full of rubbish.  I guess leadbeaters was created in answer to the problems zoos have in that it is cheap, can be prepared in advance and is very quick to dish out, handy when a busy zoo keeper hasn't much time to feed all of the animals.  I agree that fresh balanced food is probably a far better option if you have the time to prepare and buy it.

I tried baby foods, but to be honest i've not found one they really like other than baby cereals which is really just oats in a pretty package with a picture of a baby on the front.

I have found something today in Sainsburys which i thought i might try.  In the Organic Foods section and made by the company "The Food Doctor", it's basically dry roasted soya nuts - very high in protein.

Although like you i disagree with pumping animals full of artificial supplements i do think some calcium supplements would be beneficial during pregnancy/feeding.

Are there many uk suggie suppliers?  I couldn't find any until someone recommended yours to me.

I am going to try and liquidise the fruits tonight and see if they go with that - first attempt on the food processor - all looks very complex to me!  My idea of preparing a meal is to cut a lump of full flavoured chedder and open a packet of crisps!

[Marie]

You could give your suggies a little bit of cheese too .

I totally agree that some supplementation is necessary, but too much (and I believe the Leadbeater diets contain too much) is just as bad as not enough. I've tried Leadbeaters a few times, I've tried the original, bml and pml each time my suggies became constipated, and one of the modifications killed two healthy suggies!  I desperately wanted them to be as good as eveyone seems to think, but in my opinion they're just not!  I really wnated to see some kind of improvement in their health, but there was none.  People have actually spoken to me in person, via email whatever, and said to me that since they STOPPED using leadbeaters and started on the diet I use the health and fur improved.

The closest my suggies get to honey is Agave Nectar which I found in the specialist food section at Asda, it's like honey as in texture, colour and sweetness but it has a low GI rating and is safe for diabetics to use even!!

The food processor is easy, chop the fruit into quarters removing the seeds/pips (except for in stuff like Kiwi), chuck it in and press the button, as easy as openeing a packet of crisps!  We really must work on YOUR diet next :p

[roxyandboys]

Diabetic safe food - now there's a thought....  I've been using Austrailan eucalyptus honey

Diabetic honey - i'm about to investigate online sainsburys now!!

How much do you charge for your cal and vit supplements?

As for the leadbeaters - I will take your advice on this one, but, exactly which diet do you use?  There are several posted on the diet pages.

Is cheese ok for them?  D'you tend to use any particular variety of cheese? 

I am sorry to hear that you lost some suggies to the modified leadbeaters - that is just awful, especially as it was an apparent modified version of something which is supposed to be safe.

Good news, i heard today that my mothers b'friend has agreed to travel up from Cambridge on Sunday to help me build the new suggie palace!  So excited!!

[Marie]

Good news then, so does that mean you're free Saturday

The diet I use is on the booklet thing I sent you.

Cheese is ok in small amounts, I give my suggies grated cheese, a strand or two each only. 

[roxyandboys]

Diet - oh yes - i notice that now!

Saturday - Fraid not, going to do some of it myself, will just need the help on sunday for the complex stuff - I promise i will get over to you soon however!