Nutrobal anyone?

[Marie]

Does anyone use Nutrobal as their suggies supplement??  I was looking for something on the net the other day when I came across the ca:p ratio of nutrobal, it's a whopping 46:1 

Heres a couple of links to confirm -LINK 1

LINK 2

VETARK

Nutrobal contains far too much calcium in it for our suggies balanced diet (unless we class rodent/bird food as a balanced diet!).  I've seen a Leadbeater mix that has been modified for UK use which contains Nutrobal - avoid at all costs, as nutrobal also contains D3 we would be overloading the suggies system which is just as bad as not giving enough!!

Just thought I'd let you know

[Rakuen]

46:1!! *picks jaw back up off the floor* lol.

I don't use it myself and definately won't now, I buy all my suggies suppliements from you as I know it's all safe and glider friendly (used in a balanced diet of course!) 

Thanks for that info!

[GeorgeandMillie]

Hi
We are using Nutrobal as it was recommended by Mark Amey of Amey Zoo in Herts.
As we are new to all this we don't as yet know any better.
Having said this it does seem very difficult to balance the Calcium and Phospherous in Fruit  and Veggies, whatever combination are put together it is very difficult to come up with a 2:1 ratio so provided Nutrobal is used sparingly it seems a good way of balancing the deficiency. Please let us know your thoughts so we may make our own informed decision.
John & Rita

[Marie]

No, nutrobal is way too high in calcium, the ratio's aren't too hard, there are some suggestions in this section somewhere.  I didn't realise Mark had gone BACK to Nutrobal, not so long back he was recommending vitamins for nectar eating reptiles! 

Next question ... how much is sparingly?  IF you're using a Leadbeater mixture, the one Mark advises has Nutrobal in it, so you'd be drip feeding them that amount of calcium on a daily basis.  The Glidercal is literally just a sprinkle 2-3 types a week depending on your ratios.  The more calcium they can get from their diet (staying within the 2:1 ratio) the better as too many calcium supplements can crystallize and cause all sorts of problems. 

[GeorgeandMillie]

Thanks for that Marie, but Mark said not to use any diet, and when I mentioned Leadbeaters he said not to use it.
He really just said to use a variety of fresh fruit and veg, some proteins Egg, Wax worms, Crickets etc sprinkle the  Fruit and veg mix with Nutrobal every night and he also supplid us with a nectar supplement to offer once a week.
Does this sound ok, I guess not!
We have our concerns about this and also some other issues these are what we wanted to discuss with you on the phone as we are extremely confused by what we have been told.
John & Rita

[Marie]

I'll pm you my mobile number ...

[GeorgeandMillie]

Ok thanks, I was just doing one to you

[tillie]

Georgemillie I have emailed you

[roxyandboys]

bloody hell - that is high.  Dont use it and wont use it

[kent]

Hmm... I've been reading this thread, and I don't see the problem.

Sure a diet of pure Nutrobal would be a disaster, but, as I understand it with a ratio of 48:1, then it simply needs to be balanced out by phosphorous in other foods.

Follow me through this here:

As best my hasty research can tell me, a pinch is about 0.25g
Nutrobal is 1/5th calcium (200mg per gram according to the bottle)
so - each pinch of Nutrobal is about 0.05g

This means, bring the ratio back up to 2:1 one simply needs to include food that contains about 0.025 grams of phosphorous.

For the calculation above, I've disregared the phosphorous component in nutrobal as it is so small.

By the logic presented here, pure calcium would be harmful as well (with a ratio of infinity:1) ... which is true if it were the complete diet, but I can't see why it would be if used as a supplement.

Marie mentioned D3 - I'm not sure what that is yet, but will have a read when I get home later... that could be a whole other reason for not using it.

Further, it does look from my reading that it is better for them to get their calcium through regular diet rather than supplements (much like us bigger mammals) which makes perfect sense... but in a pinch (hah!) I still can't see why it should fail as a supplement.

For me the logic for using this seems sound (apart from D3?) because other reading and advice I've gotten suggests when it comes to calcium, better too much than too little - and Nutrobal can be thought of as close to pure calcium.

That being said, I have the feeling from another thread that we're about to have a dramatic diet change in this house soonish, and, I'm very much a beginner here (I've had my guys for a year or so), so I'd be mad not to defer to the advice of those with more experience, whatever my numbers tell me

[Marie]

A pinch may be 0.05g to you, but people's interpretation of a pinch is different!  And when people are putting 3 teaspoons of the stuff in the MA leadbeater mod it's problematic!  Also, you can't just give multivits, and no calcium, it's the whole kit and kaboodle!  I rarely even give my suggies calcium powder as they get their calcium from the diet. 

[Gopher]

I (also) bought Nutribol in anticipation of my glider/s arrival in a few weeks, now horribly confused

[Marie]

Nutrobal is aimed at tortoises really, they need a very high amount of calcium due to their shell.  It is way too much for gliders and can cause problems in them that are just as bad as calcium deficiency. 

[Jill Marie]

Too much calcium, in my opinion, would be worse than not enough.  Not enough and you see symptoms and can correct it by adding more calcium.  Too much calcium and you can calcify their organs and there is no way to correct that. 

I also want to point out that while using ratios is a good guideline, you cant rely on ratios alone.  There needs to be a daily requirement of a particular amount of calcium not just a ratio.  You could have a perfect ratio and still be giving them too much or not enough calcium.

Calcium ratios are not the only thing to worry about in a diet either.  It is just as important to watch protein amounts and yes be concerned about too much vit D.  But this is where the problems with diet comes in.  No one is really sure just how much is too much of any one component in a glider diet.

[Marie]

Calcium and phosphorus are the two most important minerals in the diet, there are other vits and mins that are required which are provided by the multi vitamin supplement. Unfortunately seeing as no one knows what the daily requirement is exactly we can only go by our experience and what has worked for the past 10 years +.

Things to look out for with hypercalcemia (too much calcium) are:
Loss of apetite
Excessive urination
Vomiting
Weakness
Lethargy
dehydration.